Saturday, September 08, 2007

Miracles for recognition?

http://www.voanews.com/english/2007-09-07-voa53.cfm

In the above link the article says there is a need for one more case of miracle healing in order for Mother Theresa to be declared a saint.Why do people want "miracles" to declare a person as a saint? Mother Theresa has lived her entire life for humanity and that makes her equal to God.Why should someone do something which is super human in order to get the status of God or Saint?The problem is we believe that God cannot be human and He/She should be someone who is of angelic countenance and does super human things.Why this sort of a mind block?

There are people amidst us who dedicate their entire life selflessly for humanity.Most often we recognize them when they are dead and gone.Mother Theresa deserved to be called a saint when she was living itself.Why wait for someone to be dead and gone or await a case of miracle healing to declare the person as a saint?
Religion is a tool for aiding Humanity and not viceversa.Most of today's problems are because we have used religion as a tool for war.Religions sprang up to guide humanity towards good.If there is no humanity then there is no religion.

Mother Theresa is such a great human being where in she is helping the poor and needy even after she has left her mortal body through her institution.Her entire life is thus a miracle if that is what people are searching for.To selflesslesly love another human is a miracle in itself.It is the same reason why I adore Mata Amritanandamayi cause I have witnessed with my own eyes how she consoles and helps people sometimes for 24+ hours a stretch for days together.Miracle or no miracle such people are worthy of worship.

God cannot be someone sitting in an antiseptic corner of the universe.God must be the most human of humans.We keep waiting for the heavens to open up and rain down angelic beings to come down and help us.We even forget our friends and relatives who wish good for us.What happens is that in the process we forget the ordinary mortals amidst our midst who do extraordinary things without expecting anything in return.We must start recognizing them this moment because we are all mortal.Once we start to recognize and start to emulate them then the entire humanity will be redeemed.

12 comments:

sreekumar said...

Dear Karthi ,

Thought provoking article .

Good . Keep it up .

Best Regards,

sree uncle

Nadeem Ahmed said...

<<
Mother Theresa has lived her entire life for humanity and that makes her equal to God.
>>
Living for Humanity?? God???
No matter what, u cant equal anyone to God. God is one and only one. He is a Supreme Being and will be unfair to equal any human to God.

<<
Why should someone do something which is super human in order to get the status of God or Saint?
>>
There is a huge gap between the status of God and Saint and one has to do something exceptional to be called a saint, lest we all, u n me will be called Saints' :)

<<
Mother Theresa deserved to be called a saint when she was living itself.Why wait for someone to be dead and gone or await a case of miracle healing to declare the person as a saint?
>>
Lets see the definition of a saint..Hmmm.. "A person who has died and has been declared a saint by canonization" and canonization itself is the act of admitting a 'deceased' person into the canon of saints(courtesy:Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Church), hence the title of Saint cannot be given to a living person.

<<
Religion is a tool for aiding Humanity and not viceversa.Most of today's problems are because we have used religion as a tool for war.Religions sprang up to guide humanity towards good.If there is no humanity then there is no religion.
>>
Totally agree...

sreedevi said...

I fully agree with you, Karthik...Sanatana Dharma is all about seeing God or Godly qualities in our fellow beings and in nature. It doesn't believe in a God that is hidden behind the clouds, in a far away heaven. We need even the blessing of ant for Self-realization.

I beg to differ from the Roman Catholic definition of Saints. I believe what the Hindu scriptures say about saints, sages and Gurus- that they are people who can lead us to the God within ourselves.

OT said...

I beg to differ from the Roman Catholic definition of Saints. I believe what the Hindu scriptures say about saints, sages and Gurus- that they are people who can lead us to the God within ourselves.

Er... Mother Theresa declared to be a saint as per the guidelines of the RC church , and not as per the guidelines of Hindu scriptures. :)

ab said...

The Creator and the Creation are different entities.

The article reminds me of "Anbe Sivam", the movie which claims that God is within everyone. A statement like this has negative effects. Maybe not to you and me, but to the society in general.

First, it could lead to the worship of a human being, and invoking blessings from that human. Human beings can pray for you and ask God to help your cause, but of themselves can do nothing. Humans cannot bless. That right belongs only to God.

Second, if God is in everything and everywhere, it might lead to worship of the creations and not the Creator which is prevalant in some major religions. The simple fact that God is All-See-er, All-Listening, All-Knowing is lost, because we start feeling the need for intermediaries between us and God.

This comes under the category "Deification of the created beings/objects".

Both the above lead to "Shirk" (Arabic - means "Associating Partners with God") which is the only sin that God said He will never forgive. Committing the sin of Shirk with the knowledge of it will lead to eternal Hell.

To put it simply, no human being is/was free of error or sin, no matter if it was Mother Teresa, Gandhi or you or me or even the Prophets. Nobody is worthy of worship, dead or alive. They will all stand before God on the Day of Judgement. See verses of Quran 2:165 to 2:167.

"Yet there are men who take (for worship) others besides Allah, as equal (with Allah): They love them as they should love Allah. But those of Faith are overflowing in their love for Allah. If only the unrighteous could see, behold, they would see the penalty: that to Allah belongs all power, and Allah will strongly enforce the penalty...."

http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/002.qmt.html

Those humans who are deified / worshipped will cut themselves off from those who worshipped them when they realise that their own fate is at stake, and they see the Penalty of Hell. And the worshippers will ask for a second chance.

Only God is infallible and without error.

Yes, there are good people who deserve praise and who deserve to be imitated. And Michael H. Hart wrote in his book that No. 1 in the History of the World was Prophet Mohammed - a diplomat, merchant, philosopher, orator, legislator, reformer, and military leader.

"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_100"

Beauvalet said...

dei kaarthee
i disagree with Ab.. yaar avan/ava???

first and foremost..antha padatha ozhunga paaka sollu. anbu yen sivam na, love is godliness..as is service that comes from it.. there is love in nature.. sun and rain wet you with their love even if you have comitted the most henious crimes.. they have realized that your actions, like your mind doesnt soil the supreme being in you... like the dark clouds that cant taint the azure sky....secondly when this realization comes to humans, they have become one with the supreme being inside them..and thats why they are worthy of worship.. as is everyone in the world..
advaitham na yenna nnu theriyaadama ivangalukku?

Karthik Sankar said...

I think there is a clash between ideologies here. My personal view is this. There is no way for us to worship God. Why?
1. He is formless and so is invisible.
2. What will atheists do? :) They are also good people
3. Nobody knows if there is a judgement day and why wait for it?
4. We put our faith more in the invisible than on our best friend who sacrifice his life for us.
5. We all are on rock solid earth and as long as we are here lets learn to respect and show respect(worship)our fellow beings.
6. I am sure when the day of judgement(if there is one) comes God would be happier with people who served fellow men than those who just worshipped him

ab said...

I was informed that the Advaitham concept originated from Adi Sankaran. And that it is an interpretation of the Vedas. Please give me more info and reasons as to why you believe in it.

1. He is formless and so is invisible.

Formless created formed beings. Logical?

God's form might be imperceivable to the 5 senses we possess. But there is a form. We musn't insult God by giving Him forms of His creations - like humans or animals. We respect that we cannot perceive His form.

2. What will atheists do? :) They are also good people

Your scale of goodness? True righteousness cannot come without belief in God Almighty and the Day of Judgement. We need to realise that we are accountable to God for even a "petty" sin like watching a thiruttu DVD.. Even if the Indian govt does not have a punishment in place for it, God will hold us accountable on DoJ.


3. Nobody knows if there is a judgement day and why wait for it?

The Prophets who knew, told us. This is a part of the faith. We musn't WAIT for it. We PREPARE for it.

4. We put our faith more in the invisible than on our best friend who sacrifice his life for us.

Who's that best friend? Even if a friend did something for you, it is through the permission of God. If God did not will it, it wouldn't have happened.

5. We all are on rock solid earth and as long as we are here lets learn to respect and show respect(worship)our fellow beings.

Respect good deeds. Tolerate false idealogoies. But if you have true conviction, propogate the right idealogy of the One-ness of God, the only One worthy of Worship.

6. I am sure when the day of judgement(if there is one) comes God would be happier with people who served fellow men than those who just worshipped him

"Ummatey Wasat" - Balanced Community. That is how God refers to His believers in the Quran. Neither do they spend all their time in worship, nor do they spend all their time in worldly affairs. Balance is crucial.

There is a difference between Acts of Worship and obeying God which is also worship.

God loves people who serve themselves, their families, their neighbours, animals, even the environment... Even a smile to your brother is Charity :) which if done with the intention of pleasing God, and in the right way, is also worship. Everything will qualify for "Applause Awards" on DoJ :)

Karthik Sankar said...

This is interesting.
Abdul says that goodness would only come from God centered living.
And Ramanathan says Advaitham(which means the creator and the creation are the same).Well we get back to the argument which began right at the moment of creation.Whether the creator is the same as the creation or different.Advaitham says "Creator manifests as creation" Dvaitham says,"creator created all but remains seperate". The paramatman or Allah is formless(yes as our senses perceive). If Absul is refering to idols. Well they are not interpretations of God. They are interpretations of concepts. For example,Hanuman always faces Lord Ram. This simply depicts that when "monkey like mind is made to face the divine, it assumes divine propensities".
We all trust holy books and holy men. We have faith in their words.
There are people who die for our country,sactifice a lot for us. For instance our own parents. All of them are worthy of worship irrespective of miracles !!!

Karthik Sankar said...

Small correction Abdul. Advaitham never originated from Adi Sankara. He is the first saint to have interpreted Advaitham through Dvaitham and vice versa.Advaitham and Dvaitham are 2 schools of thought which has been exisiting in Sanathana Dharma

Beauvalet said...

Hello all,

After reading through Karthik's and Abdul's remarks, i have come to realize that i had blurted out certain things too quickly.. My apologies for that...

For instance, i assumed everyone should believe in Advaitam.. which is pointless.. everyone is entitled to their opinion.. Abdul feels that he has to be "Accountable to God" which is fair enough...respect that.would ensure that i ennumerate Advaitam;s concepts alone...

My opinion, and I repeat, mine only.. are as follows..

Well to begin with, here are some I see Nadeem's and Abdul's remarks have some things in common.. they both are clear in ensuring that their opinion demarcates God from the rest of His creations. They both are not very happy with humans being worshipped..or any of his creations being deified..[allusions and concepts that karthik talked about]
Well, i also see that they are bound to follow [veda vakku] the words of their prophets.

This is in response to AB's plea to ellucidate on the tenets of Advaitam. From Aeons, sanathana dharma has had this duality in it..mainly for the ease of men, as is any religion.
Strong primeval principles of Advaitam [that claims to be older] says that the journey culminates when you find GOD in all and rise above the form..a binding that prevents you from experiencing the infinity[GOD].
Senses have limitations, and have duality[good-bad, yes no, logic mainly, and divisions and classifications]...and understanding GOD was more on the lines of unification, [poornam adah poornam idam etc ]

It says, infinity can only be measured by infinity, so narada muni came up with the bhakti sutras and said all things that are infinite can experience God. Love, true unconditional and divine love is infinite. so he prpounded the bhakti sutras to explain how this is done.
In fact it is said that the the 6 limbs of divine practice [shat vidhaas] were mainly formulated to take every excuse to find god in every single thing in the universe..
[bhakti yogam - devotion, karma yogam - in one's action, kriya yogam - in specific practices, gyana yogam - in divine knowledge, raja yogam - in societal cleansing, Hata Yogam - in the worship and cleansing of one's own body]

To concludeFor some, like our friend abdul here..karma yogam might be pivottal.He indeed strives to be a karma yogi, and therefore his allusions to right action, right speech and right lively hood
[the Ethical conduct portion of the 8 fold paths of mahayana Buddhism], as he talks about being accountable to GOD.
And so his excellent reference to the Ummatey wassat is well founded.
so Also is his thought that we should not have intermediaries. But again that has been the main aim of his school of thought...
To make his efforts of seeking God focussed and prevent it from diffusing into any other thoughts.[be it other divine school ideals too!]
For people like myself, Vedanta is a stronger tool.You see,experientially, there cant be an intermediary between you and God, because there is Nothing outside the universal set of GOD.
that, and that logic is binary and finite in its equations.. and sadly man-made.. thats why this very conversation is trying to deduce and understand the divine principles...
and in trying to do so, we are trying to find the locus and the vertices of a sphere, that has neither beginning nor end. Ashtavakra says in his divine gita that truth is a multideimensional equation made from at least a hundred variables in paradoxial continiums. Well thats why a simple algebraic system like logic cant understand it and accomodate it.
you cant prove God..for if you can, then you can disprove HIM too! So truths like these have to be marvelled at, and not be tried to understood.

MORAL: seri seri.. vetti murichathu porum..poya poya.. poi velaya paarunga ya.. .konjam time kadacha scena poda aaramichudiveengale?
Luv
Ram

ab said...

May the peace and blessings of God Almighty be on all of us for trying to understand His divine messages..

I am happy to see that there are a few people striving for goodness..

faith is to be judged - definitely essential... if we believe that everyone is entitled to their own opinion, we would even have to listen to the opinions of let's say a Serial Killer or a Rapist who have no remorse for their deeds.. which doesn't make sense, in the interest of the World.

How to judge a faith? Read their original scriptures. Not from the followers' beliefs.

I am not very knowledgable in the Hindu scriptures, so I would like you to go through the first chapter of this book and let me know if the verses from the Vedas, Upanishads, Geeta are quoted wrongly.

http://www.irf.net/book1.zip